North American Van Lines

Nancy · Joined: 10 Mar 2004 Posts: 2257 Location: California

Tyrone, there are delay penalties for moves with major van lines, just as there are with construction companies.

Diane, you are correct that Allen & Coles shouldn't be completely avoided due to one incident. As well as NAVL. They've done thousands of moves this year, and I believe two have been posted here as being delayed. Failure happens! However, you often support agent's selfhauling orders. I just wanted to point out that is part of the failure on that Atlas shipment from CA to VA. They were being self hauled by Atlantic when the truck broke down in Arizona, and only Atlantic's fleet was looked upon for a replacement truck. If it had been a regular Atlast shipment, they would have had that whole fleet to scan for a replacement truck. I don't support the notion of COD consumers asking for self hauled shipments, you don't get the support of the whole van line.

Diane · Joined: 06 Oct 2003 Posts: 15834 Location: Los Angeles

Thanks for that comment, Nancy. I also had been thinking about the self-haul issue with regard to Jody's move from CA to VA. I had been somewhat confused because this is what she just posted about the trucks:

Nancy · Joined: 10 Mar 2004 Posts: 2257 Location: California

Diane, On the Atlas issue, it sounds to me like Atlas corporate didn't want to be subject to paying out a delay claim because the agent's truck broke down. So the corporate office told the agent to negotiate a new set of dates, and then they would take over the shipment. They never promised dates in the first place, so they don't want to be held to the agency's self haul promises.

The agent takes on that responsibility when they self haul, so the corporate fleet wanted that clarified before they took over the shipment. For example, with claims, if a shipment is self hauled, that agency settles the claims. So why do a self haul and nulify the involvement of the corporate entity -- in this case being Atlas Van Lines corporate. It's like choosing a smaller, independent mover. It can be perfectly fine, but then you are only getting the benefit of the agency (and what they can offer), and not the corporate entity.

ophelia11 · Guest

Once again, Diane, you are right.
I agree with removing Allen and Coles from the heading. They have been trying to be as helpful as possible, but apparently, the problem is at the central level. They have been calling the central office on my behalf multiple times with no reply back. They are sending me one of my boxes with my study materials so as to ease that burden. Unfortnately, the employees that customers have access to have no authority or power to solve the problem. So, the problem is higher up. And that is where I will go. I am sending a certified letter to the president of North American.
It has been 11 days since I moved and they don't have a driver assigned yet. So August 16 (19 days after I moved) is not looking very realistic.

ophelia11 · Guest

Diane,
Can you remove Allen and Coles from the subject completely?

There have been many others affected by service delays from North American this summer. Only 2 complaints may be on this site, but the entire country doesn't know about this site!! Once again, the president and vice presidents are who customers need to contact. They are the ones that are overselling their services by lying about delivery dates and they are the ones that are making the big profits.

Nancy · Joined: 10 Mar 2004 Posts: 2257 Location: California

Yep, we've seen complaints about delays from Allied, Atlas, United and NorthAmerican this summer. Every major van line has them, and not everyone has the ability to move themselves and avoid these things. NorthAmerican is a publicly held company, so I wouldn't say their president and vice president are the ones making all the profits from missed deliveries. The shareholders are doing quite well too.

ophelia11 · Guest

Yes, but the shareholders aren't running the company.
The presidents and vice presidents are.
Goodness, I need to do something other than be on this website and on the phone all day long.

ophelia11 · Guest

Update:
Just spoke with a woman who said she was "Assistant to the President" .
She was unhelpful but did acknowledge that my shipment might not make it by Aug 16 (19 days from my move). She also acknowledged that North American overbooked and that they do not have enough drivers. I mentioned that it might be because they don't pay their drivers enough and she agreed to that as well. So, they are essentially lying to customers in their sales pitch. She seemed non-plussed with the idea of a lawsuit. I am to send my lawyer's letter to her. I am thinking that the amount of profit they make by overbooking far exceeds the occasional lawsuit.
I will talk to a few more higher ups if I can. Then, if I can't get anywhere, I might consider contacting a national news show (Dateline or equivalent) and suing (class action anyone?) I am sensing that I am now on a mission to expose this situation to as much of the American public as possible so that we can institute a change in the moving industry.

Nancy · Joined: 10 Mar 2004 Posts: 2257 Location: California

A class action lawsuit for your shipment being 6 days past it's delivery spread? When the company will pay for a hotel room and food costs? It's not like they are ignoring you or holding your goods hostage for additional monies. Yes, they are totally overbooked, just like every moving company in the country right now.

You posted earlier that you have an important exam to study for. I'd encourage you to focus your energies on that, it's something you have some control over. The company has told you they are working on the delivery, trust them and it will get there.

Ruges · Joined: 01 Aug 2005 Posts: 437

Diane · Joined: 06 Oct 2003 Posts: 15834 Location: Los Angeles

Ophelia,

I was wondering where you're moving from and to. I know that Allen and Coles has several locations. Is this a cross-country move?

I decided to keep the topic heading general rather than adopt your suggestion of "Avoid North American Van Lines." This is partly for the reason that Nancy gave (the problem isn't unique to NAVL) and partly because I think that to say "Avoid" is too strong for the situation.

The moving industry has many problems, but I agree with Nancy that people involved in it are doing the best they can. The fact that they got your box out of the shipment to send to you in advance (if they did) definitely shows good faith. Frankly I've never heard of such a thing. Also, the question of overbooking is a tricky one, and I wouldn't be too sure that NAVL intentionally overbooked. Lots of times it's hard to get a handle on capacity, and unanticipated problems like truck breakdowns can impact shipments far and wide. I would think that any profits the van line might make from overbooking would be more than cancelled out by the bad feeling created by delivery delays.

I may get flak for saying this, but I personally believe that the moving industry is not very well run, and that accounts for a lot of its problems. The industry was started mainly by immigrants with very limited education. A journalist named John Hess who wrote a book in 1971 commented that at that time, some moving companies didn't even have a handle on their revenue and costs. For example, many were making most of their money from storage and spending most of their money on moving household goods, but they didn't even realize it. Even today, I've read on moving forums that many owners are running their companies exactly the way their fathers did, with no innovation taking place and a lot of inefficiency being perpetuated. The people who post on those forums admit it themselves.

I think that lack of adequate laws to protect consumers, and lack of enforcement of those laws, is part of the problem too. Because scammers infest the Internet giving lowball quotes with impunity, many customers (not you) are conditioned to think that prices should be unrealistically low. Those customers then demand large discounts from the reputable movers and go with the lowest quote. Large discounts mean that it's hard to get drivers, especially good drivers. Not enough drivers leads to the situation that you are in, Ophelia.

In other words, what I'm saying is that the problem is very large and I don't actually think it's too fruitful to focus on blaming one van line. Although I really admire your spunk and energy in wanting to take on the moving industry, I feel that there are very complex forces underlying what happened to you, and those underlying forces have to be dealt with before any real change can take place.

A promising new Highway Bill that has just been approved by Congress is awaiting Bush's signature and all of us are hopeful that it may be a first step in putting the scammers out of business. It includes large fines for holding people's things hostage and for booking moves with no particular subcontractor in mind. If the scammers can be put out of business, the reputable companies may be able to compete on service once again rather than mainly on price.

Bottom line, I urge you not to overreact. I agree with Nancy that too much wheel-spinning may distract you from studying for boards, and that is the most important thing for you to focus on at this time. Those of us who have been volunteering here for years trust and respect each other on a personal level. We have our differences, but the volunteers who are not in the industry like Tim, Tyrone, MusicMom, and yours truly are not in an "us vs. them" situation with Nancy, Michael, 23, Hardatwork, and others who happen to work in the industry. I understand your indignation about what has happened to you, but in this particular situation I just want to caution you against oversimplifying and depleting your energies.

ophelia11 · Guest

Thanks Diane.
Yes, that last message was after I got off the phone with someone at the corporate office who didn't seem to care at all (the attitude of "you make the thousandth person I've heard this from and I don't care").
I must say that I have to recant my initial subject heading, because Allen and Coles has actually been quite sympathetic and helpful.
So, I agree with both Diane and Nancy, this is taking time away from studying for my boards. I have resigned myself to possibly not seeing my furniture and other medical books for 1 month (and hopefully not more) since a driver has not been assigned. I will take the boards on the 23rd and 24th. If my items have still not arrived by then, then I will try to find an effective means of getting them (I don't know what that will be, but ... I'll try).
I'll post whatever happens in the future on here and how long it actually took to get my shipment.
And Nancy, it is your lack of understanding about this that makes customers even more upset -- I can definitely tell you are in the industry. I just hope something of similar magnitude comes your way someday so you can see where I'm coming from.

Diane · Joined: 06 Oct 2003 Posts: 15834 Location: Los Angeles

Ophelia, I feel your pain. I think there is actually a driver who posts here who works for Allen and Coles in NH. Maybe he can do something. The reason I asked where you are moving from and to is that I thought the delay might have something to do with the particular route where you're moving. I've observed that East-West usually gets moved faster than North-South, except for the NY-FL lane.

Fred0844 · Guest