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Help for Houston!

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Re: Help for Houston!

Postby Diane » Thu Mar 02, 2006 10:05 pm

Hi - some important questions:

1. Do you have a GNTE quote from each company? United calls it an Option C quote and Allied calls it a Total Price Guarantee quote with Guaranteed Rate Reduction (TPG with GRR). These words/phrases should be somewhere on your paperwork.

2. What is your discount level for each quote? It should be on your paperwork and should be something like 60%. If your discount is the same from the two companies, then yes, it doesn't matter much what the initial quote is because the end amount you are charged should be about the same for the two companies since it depends on the weight. If the discount is greater for one company than another, then you will end up paying less to that company for the same weight shipment.

3. Who are the two companies?

4. Are both companies proposing to haul your shipment to CA using their own truck and driver (desirable), or are they going to have a long-haul driver from the van line do it? If the latter, is your shipment going to be transferred to a warehouse to wait for the arrival of said driver or is the driver going to come directly to your residence?

Drivers usually don't like to use shuttles unless they absolutely have to, especially for a relatively small load like yours, so they may try to avoid using one in Houston.

The company that estimated fewer boxes may have been trying to get the quote as low as possible so you will go with them. That is a common practice (not necessarily shady).

Somebody posted that you have to get special parking permits for moving vans to park in San Francisco. You might want to ask about this.

I agree with the people who said not to worry too much. If you have two reliable companies like Armstrong and Flood (or Berger) under consideration you really can't go far wrong.
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Re: Help for Houston!

Postby Houston-SanFrancisco » Thu Mar 02, 2006 11:21 pm

Wow Diane, you really seem to know your stuff. Obviously you're a pro.

So basically, it doesn't matter what the quotes say about weight and price, I'll end up paying what it weighs? It seems I'm missing something (I have no future as a salesman). I understand that "The company that estimated fewer boxes may have been trying to get the quote as low as possible so you will go with them. That is a common practice (not necessarily shady)." But how does the "GNTE" price then go up to reflect the weight? What's the point of "shopping" around, assuming the companies are not going to be incompetent or totally dishonest?

What I have from United is an order for service. It does not say anything about Option C. It does say "Non-bound estimate" Option A. I assume we have to take some more steps before we get to Option C. Atlas is an "Assured Price Protection," which does not seem to be a GNTE. Allied is a GPP Order for Service with GRR.

I just got the third quote in. Here is the general breakdown:

Weights:

6650lb $5900
5500lb $4900
6000lb $5062

That is:

    --The $6000 quote contains discounts ofTransp. 67%, Cont'Pakg, Unpack 70% and Accessorial 55%. What does Accessorial represent?
    --The $6650 quote contains a 64% discount across the board.
    --The $5500 quote doesn't state any discount.



How do I find out whether the company is going to use their own truck and driver, and whether it will be warehoused? Just ask? And what guarantee do I have that their answer is accurate and binding?


What are "advanced charges"? (Atlas, no explanation provided)

I missed the reference to the SF moving van permits. Thanks for pointing that out to me. Do I ask the company or am I supposed to find out myself. Why doesn't the moving company agent know if a shuttle will be necessary in SF in general?

Lastly, what about the unpacking and removal of all packing materials? It seems to me that dealing with all that in a recycling city like San Francisco, could be a big pain. We don't have a truck to haul things away and have no idea as to the recycling rules there. So that seems like a worthwhile investment.

Thanks Diane and all.
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Re: Help for Houston!

Postby PMueller » Fri Mar 03, 2006 12:24 am

All of your quotes are relatively close. Your lowest estimate at 5500 lbs. with a 10% variance that is usually accepted by all carriers on guaranteed or guaranteed not to exceed estimates puts it in the 6000 pound range which is in line with other estimate you have received. Therefore, I believe all of your estimates listed could be close to actual weight and charges.

The United estimate is not guaranteed nor is it guaranteed not to exceed. If you are seriously considering the use of them I urge you to request GNTE from the representative.

Advance Charges are typically for 3rd party services that the carrier believes will need to be performed. Sometimes they consist of crating/uncrating, appliance disconnections/reconnections. Not all agencies are equipped to handle the needs directly. Inquire about the advance charges and get the rep to disclose what items the charges relate to.

Shuttles in San Francisco! I usually recommend pricing one for a customer that is going there - just to be on the safe side. We are unable to accurately know for sure until the truck arrives. Alot depends on how low the trailer is (does it have a drop box - which makes the hills impossible), also, is there an alternate route into where you are moving that does not have such steep hills. Most drivers want to keep their equipment in "pristine" condition and causing trailers to bottom out is not something they want to endure. Drivers will definately attempt to deliver direct without a shuttle if at all possible. They definately don't want the labor involved in reloading to smaller truck if they can safely get to you with their rig.

Unpacking is not an ideal situation for most clients. While the removal of the debris is great, the actual unpacking leaves most customers less than satisfied. Unpacking consist of the removal of the items from the cartons and the placement of them on a flat surface only. Imagine all of your countertops, tabletops, and floor covered with your items. They will remove the paper and boxes at the time of unpacking though. If the debris is more important that the unpacking, ask you representatives about including a debris removal for you. In my area the charge for this service is $150.00-$200.00 depending on your location. They can contact the destination agent and find out for you and make it part of your order for service.
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Re: Help for Houston!

Postby Diane » Fri Mar 03, 2006 2:51 am

Hi - it's a little hard to comment intelligently since I don't know which prices, estimated weights, or discounts go with which company, but I'll take a stab at it.

United - you have an Option A quote, which is Nonbinding as Pam said. This means that you have no guaranteed maximum price. Most people want a little more peace of mind so I agree with Pam that if you liked the United rep you should try to get a GNTE quote from him or her.

Atlas - you have an Assured Price Protection quote, which is the same as a GNTE.

Allied - you have a Guaranteed Price Pledge quote with Guaranteed Rate Reduction, which is the same as a GNTE. I'm just guessing (Pam would know) that this is the quote that doesn't list a discount level.

I have no idea which actual agents you are dealing with, but I am going to guess that it's Armstrong (United), Atlantic Relocation Systems (Atlas), and Berger or Flood (Allied). If so, they are all reputable. You can't just look at van lines--you have to consider which agent of the van line you're dealing with. All van lines have "lemon" agents, some more than others.

The discount level is close--64% vs. 67%. All else being equal it's better to go with the company offering the higher discount because you'll pay less, but in your case one of the companies appears to have tacked on extra charges such as for unpacking. I also agree with Pam that the "accessorial" charges need to be explained. This company, whichever it was, seems to me to be the most "iffy" of the bunch.

I agree with Pam that it's not worth it to pay for unpacking. I don't think you'll have that much trouble flattening the boxes and tying them together and disposing of the debris. You could also give the boxes away by putting an ad on Craigs List for people to come pick them up.

How do I find out whether the company is going to use their own truck and driver, and whether it will be warehoused? Just ask? And what guarantee do I have that their answer is accurate and binding?

You have to just ask, and you're correct that the sales rep may not know the answer. It's worth a try, though, because some companies with many trucks will be able to tell you flat out that your shipment will go on one of their trucks.

. . . how does the "GNTE" price then go up to reflect the weight? What's the point of "shopping" around, assuming the companies are not going to be incompetent or totally dishonest?

The final cost doesn't depend on how many boxes you have but on the weight of the shipment and the discount level (leaving aside the possibility of extra charges for the moment). You're correct that in a certain sense, there really isn't much point in shopping around by getting quotes from different companies since the discount level and the actual weight are what's going to determine the final cost. However, by having the sales rep in your home you're hopefully getting a sense of the quality of the company and how your things will be handled.

Bottom line:- you are probably dealing with three good companies and I think you will be OK whichever one you choose, but I personally would be most impressed with the company whose rep showed the most attention to detail and seemed most professional.
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Re: Help for Houston!

Postby Houston-SanFrancisco » Fri Mar 03, 2006 11:01 am

Thanks Diane and Pam. Too bad I can't work with you!

I have sent the questions you raised to the agents (long haul, GNTE, van permits, etc.).

I would be most appreciative for some further examples of why both of you are not in favor of the unpacking? You seem to agree that the packing materials disposal can be convenient. I just recall the hassle of mounds of boxes, stuffing and dunnage, and trying to fugure out when recycle day is the following week, or the special restrictions, etc.. etc.

Is the unpacking a problem because things get mishandled, or damaged, or mixed up and "lost"? It seems to me that there is also an advantage to unpacking or uncrating all the items with the mover present, to make sure of the conditions with everyone present. I understand they will at least be unpacked in the room where they are to be placed within the apartment (i.e. the respective bedroom or the kitchen).

BTW - "Accessorial" is the term used by United for the packing and unpacking services, as well as the shuttle. Their shuttle is higher than the others ($646 vs. $550 or $584)


At this point I'm feeling pretty good about all three. In the broadest sense my question is, if things are going to level out to the actual load and services, is it better to go with the lower quote and see it rise, or the higher quote, and hope it will come down. Such a silly calculation on my part but since I can't see/understand all the factors and calculations, it comes down to that in my mind. Is the low bid always the best?


Last unrelated question. I'm going to be driving a separate rental truck with our light valuables and necesities, and towning our car on a car carrier. Any recommendations or sites for self-packing and moving? It's been over a decade since I did a move and I'm a bit rusty. Plus I'm going to be trucking a whole load of super-fragile artwork. I'm a bit freaked out about damage and theft. If you can believe it, the last time I did that I actually slept inside the truck on top of my things! What a nut!


Thanks again.
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Re: Help for Houston!

Postby Diane » Fri Mar 03, 2006 12:27 pm

Houston-SanFrancisco wrote:Is the unpacking a problem because things get mishandled, or damaged, or mixed up and "lost"? NO--it's a convenience issue--see below. It seems to me that there is also an advantage to unpacking or uncrating all the items with the mover present, to make sure of the conditions with everyone present.

Pam and I can't see your total situation so we are responding in general. IN GENERAL it's inconvenient to have every single item that you own unpacked and resting on tables (or, more likely, floors) in the individual rooms. However, if you're having a full pack done and crating as well, I can see why you might want to have everything unpacked and uncrated in your presence. It seems as if you have a lot of fragile/valuable items so you do need to be extra careful.
In the broadest sense my question is, if things are going to level out to the actual load and services, is it better to go with the lower quote and see it rise, or the higher quote, and hope it will come down.

Theoretically if you have GNTEs none of your quotes should "rise" unless you add services like a shuttle. (I am wondering whether United didn't give a GNTE because of some factor like the crating and packing. Pam would know.) In my opinion it's better to go with neither the lower quote nor the higher quote but with the quote offered by the best-quality company, as far as you can determine it.

Just as an aside, many Atlas agents offer free full replacement value coverage if you have AAA and the shipment is at least 5000 pounds.

On how to load the rental van, I yield to others for advice on that! Just a thought--maybe workers from the company you select could load the van for you as well.
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Re: Help for Houston!

Postby PMueller » Fri Mar 03, 2006 10:20 pm

Diane wrote:Theoretically if you have GNTEs none of your quotes should "rise" unless you add services like a shuttle. (I am wondering whether United didn't give a GNTE because of some factor like the crating and packing. Pam would know.) In my opinion it's better to go with neither the lower quote nor the higher quote but with the quote offered by the best-quality company, as far as you can determine it.


With packing and crating United should still be able to provide a GNTE. Your lowest estimate should not increase in cost, unless you add additional items to be moved - if you purchased something new or if you decided to take something that was not originally going to be moved. Therefore if the lowest estimate is a guaranteed estimate you are secure in the quoted cost.

You met with the individuals in your home. From reading back to your post in the beginning, I know you interviewed the representatives well and in detail. You received a "gut" instinct with each individual. Go back and review the feelings you had when they were you in your home. Were they all equally informative, did they all arrive on time, did anyone provide a courtesy call in advance to let you know they were in route, how well did they inform you of your rights and responsibilities, how well did they answer your questions. Cheapest or the most expensive, which is better? The best is where you feel you are receiving the most value and peace of mind. While you have identified specific carriers - I could give more detail on the Allied office if I knew the agent you were talking with. Likewise, we can consider the track records of the other agents also.

Unpacking - as Diane stated is usually more inconvenient than anything else. You do stand a risk of items getting broken as people are moving about with the boxes and mounds of paper. For damages, as long as the carrier packed the items your valuation coverage is in effect. You have 9 months from your date of delivery to file a claim on damages. Any item you pack yourself though has limited liability even if you purchase full value protection. It is limited to liability only if there is external damage to the carton. It doesn't sound to me that you are doing any packing except for maybe some items that you are moving yourself. You may consider having them perform a partial unpack (only the kitchen and breakables) which may not be so overwhelming.

I am not an expert in the truck rental and moving items yourself arena. I'm sure someone else can pick this topic up for you and give some good advise. The best advise I have on the topic is to make your reservation early if you are moving at the end of a month. When picking up the truck, inspect it to the best of your knowledge, get inside with the doors shut and look for light shining through the sides or tops - you don't want a truck with holes that will allow moisture to leak into and on your possessions. Make sure the possessions are secure and packed tightly. Your movers may assist you in loading, just keep in mind they will not want any responsibility for liability on the items you are moving yourself.

Keep us updated as you progress.
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Re: Help for Houston!

Postby Houston-SanFrancisco » Sat Mar 04, 2006 10:25 am

Hi and thanks again.

We have decided to go with United. The agent provided an Option C quote, and stated that our load would be on their truck with their driver, so we're reassured there. We haven't signed anything yet since it is the weekend.

To be truthful, we felt about equally good with thee of the four movers (Atlantic-Atlas, Armstrong-United, and Harris-North American Van Lines). The fourth, Berger-Alllied didn't inspire as much confidence. The weight estimate was too low, too many things left off and zero follow up. The United Agent provided a quote that was not the highest weight but was in the middle range and included all eventualities (shuttle, coverage) but still came in with a competitive quote. We are getting $75,000 coverage with a $250 deductible on 6000lbs. My only concern is the box count. He has 55 1.5 boxes (small) only, whereas the high bidder has 90 1.5 boxes and 25 3.0 boxes! To be honest I would estimate it falls somewhere in between (75+ boxes). Should I be worried about that, or bring it up with the United agent?

We still need to work out a lot of details, such as we need to move on a Monday, so will the packing have to be done on the Friday before, or can it all be done on one day?

By the way we were convinced not to go with the unpacking service, for the reasons you all mentioned, and an agent pointed out we could resell the boxes for perhaps $150-$200 to help defray some costs.


Please let me know what you think about the box question.

Thanks
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Re: Help for Houston!

Postby PMueller » Sat Mar 04, 2006 6:32 pm

Houston-SanFrancisco wrote:My only concern is the box count. He has 55 1.5 boxes (small) only, whereas the high bidder has 90 1.5 boxes and 25 3.0 boxes! To be honest I would estimate it falls somewhere in between (75+ boxes). Should I be worried about that, or bring it up with the United agent?

We still need to work out a lot of details, such as we need to move on a Monday, so will the packing have to be done on the Friday before, or can it all be done on one day?


Has the United estimate broke down the boxes by 1.5 cartons and book cartons? If yes, add them together for a total carton count of 1.5 cartons. I break my estimates down this way because a 1.5 carton that is packed with books has a different weight factor than a 1.5 carton packed with other items. With a United estimate that includes Option C (which is the equivalent of a GNTE) you should be covered without further worry.

If you want to load on a Monday you will most likely need to schedule the packing on Friday. Not knowing your total box count, it is difficult for me to say for sure, but if you have a total box count from 60-185 you will need this done at least a day before loading (loading on a Monday means packing on Friday). They will leave enough necessities unpacked for your use through the weekend. If your total carton count exceeds 185 you may need to schedule 2 days for packing. In my area we would schedule this for a Friday & Saturday for a Monday load, not all agents will give you Saturday though without overtime (just as we don't when summer arrives).

Thanks for disclosing the agencies you were considering. Armstrong/United has been a strong service provider for a great number of years. I am disheartened to hear the lack of follow-up from the Berger/Allied office, but am making some notations on it in my personal book in the event I need service for a client in Houston. It always saddens me when a fellow representative has left something to be desired from a potential customer. You used good logic in making your decision, I hope all goes smoothly and report back on the service you received.
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Re: Help for Houston!

Postby Diane » Sat Mar 04, 2006 10:07 pm

Houston-SanFrancisco wrote:Thanks Diane and Pam. Too bad I can't work with you!

I think we would ALL like to have Pam Mueller as our sales agent . . . we should be so lucky!

I think you've made a good choice, and I agree with Pam that with Option C you don't have to worry about the price increasing. But if you're concerned, call the agent and say that another company estimated many more boxes, and will it be a problem if you have more, etc.

I checked what "cardsfan' said about the various estimators and he liked the Armstrong rep but said that he was somewhat negative about the other companies and hard to get hold of - http://www.movingscam.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7120 I don't know whether you had the same feeling.

I'm curious as to how you happened to have the North American agent come because I hadn't heard of that company (Harris) before. If you have any further comments about Harris, please post them.

The thing that impresses me most is how knowledgeable and confident you sound! Originally you seemed disoriented by your discovery that you had been negotiating with scammers. I'm so glad you found this website because I shudder to think what might have happened to your artwork and furniture in their hands.
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Re: Help for Houston!

Postby PMueller » Sat Mar 04, 2006 10:39 pm

Diane wrote:I think we would ALL like to have Pam Mueller as our sales agent . . . we should be so lucky!


Ah, geez - you have me blushing!!

On a more serious note, it's just about the education of the consumer. An informed customer can and will make better decisions than one that is not. It is extremely unfortunate that not every agent for carriers believe in this philosophy. Customers need to know realistically what to expect before, during and after a relocation. Companies need to provide the trust that the customers are putting in them and remember it is a privilege to serve the customer properly. Every company makes some mistakes and errors occasionally, but the way they resolve the issues makes all the difference.

This site, the volunteers, Tim, Diane, MusicMom (and ALL of the others) provide so much to the consumer. I admire the time that is put in by everyone, I can't keep up with them - but will continue to do what I can, when I can. I am thankful that an informed customer of mine referred me to this site and I am thankful that the consumer's have this site to gain additional information that may not be known to them elsewhere.
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Re: Help for Houston!

Postby Houston-SanFrancisco » Sun Mar 05, 2006 10:14 am

Crisis time. Arghh.

My back injury has flared up in a major way, after only one day packing. I broke my back 2 years ago, and that is why I was going with the full service move. I still thought I could pack a significant amount of my art and personal belongings. However, I spent last night in agony and I'm only sitting here writing thanks to pain killers. This is so depressing. I'm concerned about being able to pack, load, drive for 3 days, and unload. Things are not looking good.

I don't think I can either afford to have everything we own full-service shipped, and I don't have enough confidence in the movers (with all due respect) ability to protect some of my museum pieces.

What a freaking pain, in all senses of the word.

Now I have to face hiring someone to help with the actual packing and loading of the stuff I am planning to take. Everything I've read about that is that it is the worst of the worst of the incompetent. Not really the fault of minimum-wage (or less) day laborers--why should they care? I suppose the loading is not so problematic, but the packing has me really concerned.

So I have 2 fundamental questions:

1) Are there any really good labor-providers that could be recommended for both Houston and San Francisco?

2) Also, does anyone have any opinions about rental truck security? As I mentioned previously, I had actually slept in the truck during the move, and as I recall, I removed the distributor cap off the truck engine each night. Are there any other security measures that might be suggested?

I'm starting to feel like I'm abusing your gracious help but it's hard not to want to take advantage of your wisdom.



In response to Diane's questions:

None of the estimators had a single thing to say about their competitors, neither negative nor positive. I really liked that.

The Harris-North American agent representative was a very nice guy, and knowledgeable. His estimates and quote was the highest which simply excluded him based on the system employed by the company footing the bill.

So far I haven't had much difficulty getting a hold of the United agent, but I haven't tried much. I'll being trying to do so tomorrow quite a bit so we'll find out. He didn't reply to my emails over the weekend but I don't think I should expect that unless it was an emergency. We all have our lives (supposedly).
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Re: Help for Houston!

Postby Diane » Sun Mar 05, 2006 1:23 pm

Hi - thanks for answering my questions.

I have a bad back too--probably loading the ABF trailer was the last insult after hoisting too many toddlers and carrying too many building materials during various house remodelings. So I can identify.

What I honestly would do in your situation is send everything with Armstrong. They are a highly-rated Pinnacle Mover. They are going to know what they are doing with regard to packing--even museum pieces. If I were you, I would register the high value items and trust them. You could ask the sales rep to be present during the packing and crating. You could also tell them that you are going to report on your move here on this website (that gets well over a million hits a month).

As for cost, if you total the cost of the rental van, gas, and workers to pack and load/unload, I bet it would be pretty close to having Armstrong do it all. And the trip would be so much easier for you if you don't have to worry about security and towing your car. You are fortunate that your company is paying for part of the cost.

You have only one back, and "things" are only "things." If you try to hire workers to pack and load a rental van I feel you will be dividing the responsibility and increasing your stress when you're already in pain. At some point we all have to trust others. Just my .02.
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Re: Help for Houston!

Postby PMueller » Sun Mar 05, 2006 4:35 pm

I would agree with Diane on having Armstrong/United take care of everything. You will need to discuss the changes with your representative though and get a new estimate/order for service or receive a change order with the price changes if you have already signed the original estimate/order for service.

The "museum" pieces should probably be crated rather than just boxed. I would recommend having the rep back to your home to take exact measurements and to price crates on the "higher value" pieces. Most reputable movers can and do easily prepare and take care of these types of pieces. Work has been performed for the Smithsonian and other high end art collectors in the past. With Armstrong/United and their history in the industry, I'm sure they have capable employees to handle the task. (I doubt they will sleep on the stuff and remove the distributor cap though!)

You will definately want to add these items to the High Value Inventory along with increasing your full value replacement appropriately. Call the rep frist thing on Monday to discuss and plan.

Honestly, the cost difference for Armstrong to handle complete vs. truck rental, labor, fuel, etc. won't be that much difference. The most expensive portion of any shipment is the initial weight. The additional weight may even increase the discount level they can provide although from the information you provided I would think they have discounted about as high as possible for shipments coming out of your area. However, the cost for each 100 pounds may decrease by you reaching certain breakpoints in the weight factor. Call and talk to the rep before assuming you can not afford it.
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Re: Help for Houston!

Postby Houston-SanFrancisco » Wed Mar 08, 2006 9:03 am

Hi again. Ok between my back and your advice, I have surrendered to a full pack with Armstrong. We will drive the car. My back totally siezed up and I have no choice.

The last remaining issue are three museum quality artwork pieces. Armstrong wants to crate them. They use a third-party packer called Deliverance-Par Services, Inc.. I need to find out if I can really trust them with extreme fragile and complicated pieces for packing. They need some sort of a cavity packing system, not just some bubble-wrap and peanuts.

The Armstrong people gave me their number and I'm going to try to contact them to decide if I can put these items in their hands.

Do you know anything about them and the packing methods?

Thanks again.
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